Curse

Riot Narita · Jun 22, 2010, 04:51 PM // 16:51

Quote:

Originally Posted by Lanier

My suggestion to you is, if you really do have an unlimited supply of pie, sell it to make a buttload of cash and then run AR anyway. Is having that one extra skill slot free really worth having to use personal cons wherever you go in PvE?

Got no use for money. Not because I'm rich (I'm not), but because I have no interest in paying for vanity armor/weapons/minis/whatever, and I never have.

You think running cons is a punishment for not using AR?
Because it isn't. Pies are superior to AR.
That's why I farm them, and farming a year's worth is stupidly easy.
I have them, so I'm going to use them.

Since you didn't seem to get it the first time:

Quote:

Originally Posted by Riot Narita

Pumpkin Pies give the same IAS, have no cast time, require no energy, do not give me -20 armour, last for 10 minutes unconditionally, do not take up a skill slot, works under Vocal Minority and standing in a Well of Silence, and reduces skill activation times. They even give me sweet points.

In other words, freeing a skill slot is not the only reason to use Pies. It's the gravy.

I'll give you the answer to my question, since you simply dodge/smokescreen/don't get it: There IS no reason for me to bring AR, when I have pies.

Lanier · Jun 22, 2010, 05:32 PM // 17:32

Quote:

Originally Posted by Riot Narita

There IS no reason for me to bring AR, when I have pies.

Fair enough, maybe I should revise my previous statement that AR is the best IAS in the game. AR is the best IAS skill in the game. Its not like I ever said that you should use AR over your pies.

Khomet Si Netjer · Jun 22, 2010, 07:57 PM // 19:57

Quote:

Originally Posted by Lanier

Err, I would have to disagree with you on this one. There were studies awhile back that concluded that spears had the highest DPS of any weapon not taking into consideration attack skills. When those were taken into consideration, the assassin came out on top. However, the paragon's attack skills generally add about the same bonus damage as the warrior's or dervish's attack skills. The ranger's base dps and dps with attack skills just falls way behind...

Lanier, this is simply not true even with a casual examination. Typical spear skills top out at +18 damage or so, while Warrior/Ranger/Dervish/Assassin attack skills typically range up to +36 damage at the same weapon mastery spec, not counting dual strikes or strength bonus or critical hits. The only spear attack skills which deal more damage are those with 3s activation time (useless) or elite skills which range up to +25 or so. This is still less than the warrior/derv/assassin equivalents though it looks similar to what the ranger has. The paragon's attack skills are not as strong as the other professions even though autoattacks may do similar damage.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Lanier

What I'm trying to say is that from a scientific DPS standpoint, paragons really are pretty well balanced with warriors and dervishes. Assassins do more damage but that is to be expected from a class that is intended to be more offensive than the paragon class. But in terms of DPS, the paragon is well balanced.

no, because paragon has less bonus damage and no AoE at all.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Lanier

Now taking into account AoE damage makes things more difficult. What you have to consider is how well enemies are going to be balled up in a given area. If you are tanking and spanking in an organized team build, then AoE is clearly superior to single target damage. However, in general PvE, when im just running around VQing with H/H, I really have not found AoE to be all that worth it. Strait up DPS will get you through PvE swiftly, and the paragon is not lacking in terms of DPS.

Also, everyone has to remember that often the effects of a warrior's dps is exaggerated in physway builds. A lot of the damage comes from splinter and MoP, not just HB.

this is certainly true, and this is the key issue IMO. The multiple attack capability of the other professions (scythes, whirlwind attack, hundred blades, barrage, volley, dual attacks) trigger multiple packets of damage from Mark of Pain, Splinter Weapon, Barbs, Strength of Honor, Orders, Great Dwarf Weapon, Asuran Scan, etc. and vastly increase the damage output. Without any multi-attack capability paragon cannot compete with any of those professions.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Lanier

So what I think is that IF the paragon's offensive capabilities were poor (like the ranger's is now), then yes, it would need buffing. However, I really do not see the paragon's offensive capabilities as being poor... at all.

Hopefully I have made it clear why paragon is inferior to the other damage dealers in PvE, I don't think anything I said is news to anyone. Single target damage does not cut it in PvE where AoE is everything, even on physical damage dealers. Splinter Weapon, GDW, Hundred Blades, Whirlwind Attack, Barrage, Death Blossom and Critscythe should be adequate proof of this if anyone still has doubts.

BTW the ranger's damage potential is not bad at all, he can deliver mass damage with splinter barrage or high single target damage with things like Glass Arrows + Triple Shot + Asuran Scan. He can even do both in the same build. What I want for paragon is equality with the ranger, I don't think that is asking for too much.

Lanier · Jun 22, 2010, 09:35 PM // 21:35

Quote:

Originally Posted by Khomet Si Netjer

Lanier, this is simply not true even with a casual examination. Typical spear skills top out at +18 damage or so, while Warrior/Ranger/Dervish/Assassin attack skills typically range up to +36 damage at the same weapon mastery spec, not counting dual strikes or strength bonus or critical hits.

I'v already admitted that Assassins along with their critical strike and dual strikes have a higher dps than spear chucking paragons.

The strait up damage spear attacks:

Spear of Lightning - @14 Spear Mastery, does +20 damage + the 25% ar penetration which adds a buttload of damage in HM. Go give it a try.

Blazing Spear - @14 Spear Mastery, does +66 damage taking into account the burning.

Cruel Spear - @14 Spear Mastery, does +29 damage + deep wound.

Stunning Strike - @14 Spear Mastery, does +28 damage

Spear of Fury - Does +30-40 damage

I'm also going to go ahead and mention Harrier's Toss. It takes some skill to meet the condition but I have given it a try in some recent Vanquishes and found that enemies do in fact move around a bit. All enemies move when you first engage them. Melee enemies move to close into their targets (usually your parties caster's thanks to the way the AI in this game is). Caster's typically try to kite the enemy, causing them to follow and move again. In addition, I was surprised at how often enemy casters moved to get away from my melees. Harrier's Toss is a little clunky to use due to the energy cost but with a couple of adrenal shouts/chants, energy is a piece of cake to manage. It takes some skill to use but should you get the additional bonus damage from Harrier's Toss, the damage potential is close to that of Blazing Spear's.

That is 5 attack skills that do a high amount of bonus damage. Add to that the fact that spear is ranged (whereas scythes and warrior weapons are not).

Paragon's single target DPS is very potent.

Oh, and I would disagree that in a generic PvE H/H setting when you are not trying to ball up enemies, that AoE is everything. In fact, I would say that is is not all that important. Usually, I have found that enemies do not choose the same targets when they attack. Melee enemies tend to choose minions to attack or any of the backliners. They certainly don't stay together. Ranged enemies are more often likely to stay together but I usually don't see more than two of them adjacent to each other at a time. That certainly doesn't make AoE "everything".

belshazaarswrath · Jun 22, 2010, 11:58 PM // 23:58

Quote:

Originally Posted by Lanier

That is 5 attack skills that do a high amount of bonus damage. Add to that the fact that spear is ranged (whereas scythes and warrior weapons are not).

Paragon's single target DPS is very potent.

Oh, and I would disagree that in a generic PvE H/H setting when you are not trying to ball up enemies, that AoE is everything. In fact, I would say that is is not all that important. Usually, I have found that enemies do not choose the same targets when they attack. Melee enemies tend to choose minions to attack or any of the backliners. They certainly don't stay together. Ranged enemies are more often likely to stay together but I usually don't see more than two of them adjacent to each other at a time. That certainly doesn't make AoE "everything".

So after reading this post I sat down and did some paragoning. Using some of the skills you suggested I did far less than adequate damage. At most I would hit 80 damage and that was rare (I usually hit around 40-60 per attack skill).
Foes were generally shrugging off my blows.

With any other physical class I would have been killing these foes quickly and by myself. As it was my heroes and henchmen had to clean up after me since I was doing to little damage over too long of a time.

At least if there was AoE available to me I would be able to do the same amount of damage to a few bunched up foes at once. And there are many instances throughout Guild Wars in normal and hard mode where foes are in great numbers and in a bunch even if you aren't tanking and spanking. Especially if you have a balanced team consisting of a front and backline.

Lanier · Jun 23, 2010, 12:43 AM // 00:43

Hmm...

Well I guess we are just going to have agree to disagree on our standards for offensive dps. Personally, I have had much success with my paragon and his strait up offensive builds. I'm not going to try to explain why our experiences were different because honestly, I don't know why. Still, from my experiences playing as a paragon, it seems to me as though I am just as potent as I am playing as a derv or warrior.

belshazaarswrath · Jun 23, 2010, 01:42 AM // 01:42

Quote:

Originally Posted by Lanier

Hmm...

Well I guess we are just going to have agree to disagree on our standards for offensive dps. Personally, I have had much success with my paragon and his strait up offensive builds. I'm not going to try to explain why our experiences were different because honestly, I don't know why. Still, from my experiences playing as a paragon, it seems to me as though I am just as potent as I am playing as a derv or warrior.

I suppose so.

Although as much as I would like to see a spear mastery buff I think if they can work out making their support better I will still be happy. I can always run a dagger,scythe or hammer build if I want to up the ante on damage.

Dame Laureline · Jun 23, 2010, 10:04 AM // 10:04

Abour AR, -20 armor is +40 % damages. When I take 50 damages, I would have taken 70. It's not a good thing, as with a H/H party I usually take first aggro from casters. And while in the battle, well I won't waste 25-e and 2 secs just to be sure to be interrupted, will I ? I'm more to rely on shouts than on chants for this double reason (time/interrupt).

About last argument about paragon/warrior comparison, I'm definitively sure warrior is best dps, because of two facts :
- sword and axe are faster than spear. Any buff will work more often.
- I'm sure there is no ranged buff as good as melee buff like strength of honor. So that's a great improve to sword/axe.

Sure warriors can land less hits if the targets run away, but paragons too, as moving targets usually dodge.

AoE or not AoE is another problem. As a dervish I just seem to have to wait in order to time my AoE, so it's not a good thing as I'm wasting time to make circumstances good. Also if the party can dispatch the mob quickly AoE are good. If the party can't, well individual spikes are best, with healer/rezer first targets.

Khomet Si Netjer · Jun 23, 2010, 03:00 PM // 15:00

Quote:

Originally Posted by Dame Laureline

Abour AR, -20 armor is +40 % damages. When I take 50 damages, I would have taken 70. It's not a good thing, as with a H/H party I usually take first aggro from casters. And while in the battle, well I won't waste 25-e and 2 secs just to be sure to be interrupted, will I ? I'm more to rely on shouts than on chants for this double reason (time/interrupt).

About last argument about paragon/warrior comparison, I'm definitively sure warrior is best dps, because of two facts :
- sword and axe are faster than spear. Any buff will work more often.
- I'm sure there is no ranged buff as good as melee buff like strength of honor. So that's a great improve to sword/axe.

there are at least three other advantages for warrior:
- skills which attack multiple foes or hit a foe multiple times (ie. more damage packets)
- skills which deal AoE damage on each hit (hundred blades)
- armor penetration on every attack skill (strength)

Quote:

Originally Posted by Dame Laureline

AoE or not AoE is another problem. As a dervish I just seem to have to wait in order to time my AoE, so it's not a good thing as I'm wasting time to make circumstances good. Also if the party can dispatch the mob quickly AoE are good. If the party can't, well individual spikes are best, with healer/rezer first targets.

One thing that a lot of people overlook is the fact that single-target physical damage can be shut down very easily with any number of blocking skills, blind spam, weakness, miss hexes, snaring, etc. If you have some form of AoE then you continue to deal damage despite these adverse conditions.... death nova from a minion bomber will still be damaging and poisoning many foes, splinter weapon and hundred blades will still be damaging all adjacent. You can see this for yourself in places such as Slaver's Exile where there are usually multiple healers in the opposing groups. You attack one healer, the other healer prots him and nothing much happens. AoE helps to out-pressure the opposing team in such situations since the opposing force is unlikely to be able to heal all of the damage.

If you want to see more examples of physical damage shutdown try out Shards of Orr or fight some raptors with your single-target dps team. I'm betting that you will not be happy with the results. :-)

IlikeGW · Jun 23, 2010, 03:36 PM // 15:36

Quote:

Originally Posted by Lanier

Hmm...

Well I guess we are just going to have agree to disagree on our standards for offensive dps. Personally, I have had much success with my paragon and his strait up offensive builds. I'm not going to try to explain why our experiences were different because honestly, I don't know why. Still, from my experiences playing as a paragon, it seems to me as though I am just as potent as I am playing as a derv or warrior.

Well damage is damage and it gets the job done eventually. I mean even wand damage can kill an enemy. This is more about the design of the paragon being obtuse. I mean in GW2 they're putting auto combos of warrior skills that naturally go together, well you can't really do the same with a paragon since the skills are so clunky. They have little in the way of deep offensive combos. It feels like it just has the generic spear skills you'd slightly augment a build with, rather than the core. This is one thing they need to work on imo, if only a handful of changes.

The other things seem simpler to me. Nerf SY's armor gain by half, rebuff Incoming a bit. Buff the unused shouts and chants a small amount.

The other problem I think is that like many expansion classes paragons don't have much dual profession synergy. They mostly use their own skills. But that's too late to fix imo without introducing another 20 skills.

Khomet Si Netjer · Jun 23, 2010, 03:44 PM // 15:44

Quote:

Originally Posted by Lanier

I'v already admitted that Assassins along with their critical strike and dual strikes have a higher dps than spear chucking paragons.

The strait up damage spear attacks:

Spear of Lightning - @14 Spear Mastery, does +20 damage + the 25% ar penetration which adds a buttload of damage in HM. Go give it a try.

I like this skill but it doesn't work with Orders, Barbs, Mark of Pain, etc.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Lanier

Blazing Spear - @14 Spear Mastery, does +66 damage taking into account the burning.

Blazing Spear is great, no argument there.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Lanier

Cruel Spear - @14 Spear Mastery, does +29 damage + deep wound.

It's elite, less damage than Eviscerate, and conditional. :-(
The only advantage it has vs. Eviscerate is range.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Lanier

Stunning Strike - @14 Spear Mastery, does +28 damage

I like this one too, but 10 adrenaline means that there will be plenty of times when you can't fire it early enough to stop incoming damage from a caster.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Lanier

Spear of Fury - Does +30-40 damage

This one is awesome... ranged Dragon Slash. But it's a PVE skill, it is supposed to be awesome.

The other spear skills I was thinking of when I wrote that message are Vicious Attack, Wild Throw, Holy Spear, Spear of Redemption. They all have useful effects aside from pure damage, but the damage is +20 at 15 spear mastery. Warrior and Dervish attack skills at 15 weapon mastery are usually dealing +40 bonus damage. Let's not even discuss Assassin dual attack skills which deal +40 (x2) or +60 (x2) Doesn't seem fair to me. :-(

Quote:

Originally Posted by Lanier

I'm also going to go ahead and mention Harrier's Toss. It takes some skill to meet the condition but I have given it a try in some recent Vanquishes and found that enemies do in fact move around a bit. All enemies move when you first engage them. Melee enemies move to close into their targets (usually your parties caster's thanks to the way the AI in this game is). Caster's typically try to kite the enemy, causing them to follow and move again. In addition, I was surprised at how often enemy casters moved to get away from my melees. Harrier's Toss is a little clunky to use due to the energy cost but with a couple of adrenal shouts/chants, energy is a piece of cake to manage. It takes some skill to use but should you get the additional bonus damage from Harrier's Toss, the damage potential is close to that of Blazing Spear's.

Fair enough, but why would I want to pay 10e per shot in order to "maybe" equal the damage from Blazing Spear? 10e is okay on a ranger who pays half price or less on every skill. Not so great on a paragon or even a dervish or assassin.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Lanier

That is 5 attack skills that do a high amount of bonus damage. Add to that the fact that spear is ranged (whereas scythes and warrior weapons are not).

Paragon's single target DPS is very potent.

I agree, their single target DPS is okay, but it is inferior to any of the alternatives. :-(

FlyMoto · Jun 23, 2010, 04:53 PM // 16:53

Quote:

Originally Posted by Khomet Si Netjer

The other spear skills I was thinking of when I wrote that message are Vicious Attack, Wild Throw, Holy Spear, Spear of Redemption. They all have useful effects aside from pure damage, but the damage is +20 at 15 spear mastery. Warrior and Dervish attack skills at 15 weapon mastery are usually dealing +40 bonus damage. Let's not even discuss Assassin dual attack skills which deal +40 (x2) or +60 (x2) Doesn't seem fair to me. :-(

And none of them are ranged. None of them have the team-buffing utility Paragon has to go with it. Dervish and Assassin don't have the armor (well, Assassin does with Critical Agility). The only reason they CAN have this utility is to go /W and bring SY! which is a broken PvE skill.

Paragon's problem is still that it can do too much to let it shine very well at any one thing. Ranged attacks mean its damage can't be too high or it will make melee pointless (Rangers have the same problem). The existence of SY! makes every other Paragon shout skill, possibly save TNTF!, virtually worthless... not to mention that SY! scales not on any attribute, but on faction, so the other classes aren't even having to use attribute points to use it effectively. Similarly, if you buff the chants/shouts too much, Paragon will outshine other classes very quickly by offering reasonable damage on top of party buffs at a higher armor level. The only thing which can compete on some level then would be a Ritualist.

Khomet Si Netjer · Jun 23, 2010, 07:44 PM // 19:44

Quote:

Originally Posted by FlyMoto

And none of them are ranged. None of them have the team-buffing utility Paragon has to go with it. Dervish and Assassin don't have the armor (well, Assassin does with Critical Agility). The only reason they CAN have this utility is to go /W and bring SY! which is a broken PvE skill.

Paragon's problem is still that it can do too much to let it shine very well at any one thing. Ranged attacks mean its damage can't be too high or it will make melee pointless (Rangers have the same problem). The existence of SY! makes every other Paragon shout skill, possibly save TNTF!, virtually worthless... not to mention that SY! scales not on any attribute, but on faction, so the other classes aren't even having to use attribute points to use it effectively. Similarly, if you buff the chants/shouts too much, Paragon will outshine other classes very quickly by offering reasonable damage on top of party buffs at a higher armor level. The only thing which can compete on some level then would be a Ritualist.

It's very amusing to see people ranting that paragons are overpowered because they can make the best use of another profession's PVE skill, namely Save Yourselves. If SY is a problem it is because of SY itself, not the paragon.

I believe that in GW one ought to be able to make viable teams with all casters or all ranged attackers if desired. Melee attackers should not be necessary at all unless you want to use them... however many seem to think that other classes can't be powerful or they will "make melee pointless" as you describe. No one is forcing you to take elementalists or mesmers, by the same token why should you be forced to take melee to do decent damage?

NerfHerder · Jun 23, 2010, 08:01 PM // 20:01

Ive said it before, and I think many Paragon fans will agree. Go ahead and nerf SY!, just give us some better offensive/defensive utility.

belshazaarswrath · Jun 23, 2010, 10:45 PM // 22:45

Quote:

Originally Posted by NerfHerder

Ive said it before, and I think many Paragon fans will agree. Go ahead and nerf SY!, just give us some better offensive/defensive utility.

I honestly wouldn't mind a nerf to all of the PvE only skills in this vein (sunspear and faction based). Tie them all to the main attribute of the class that they are for. Then tone them down.

NerfHerder · Jun 23, 2010, 11:40 PM // 23:40

Quote:

Originally Posted by belshazaarswrath

I honestly wouldn't mind a nerf to all of the PvE only skills in this vein (sunspear and faction based). Tie them all to the main attribute of the class that they are for. Then tone them down.

If they tied the SS/faction based skills to thier primary profession, then I dont see a need to tone them down. IMO, the only skills that are problematic are SY! and Aura of Holy Might. And thats because they are exploited by other professions.

Khomet Si Netjer · Jun 24, 2010, 12:10 AM // 00:10

hey guys let's not let this turn into another "SY is OP" thread. :-)

We are trying to find ways to make paragons better, not ways to make SY worse. If SY is nerfed and no other changes are made then paragons would probably disappear from the meta completely.

Axel Zinfandel · Jun 24, 2010, 03:47 AM // 03:47

Quote:

Originally Posted by Khomet Si Netjer

hey guys let's not let this turn into another "SY is OP" thread. :-)

We are trying to find ways to make paragons better, not ways to make SY worse. If SY is nerfed and no other changes are made then paragons would probably disappear from the meta completely.

I don't think anyone is saying that no other changes should be make to the paragon, however SY is bound to be mentioned and talked about a lot consider it is THE most important part of fixing paragon as a class.

Hell, I would run the imbagon build itself even if SY! gave +40 health. It's still be a damn solid build, if ya ask me.

But the point is even if changes to the paragon were made and done right, if SY! is not changed they will be stuck in that role no matter what.

RedDog91 · Jun 24, 2010, 04:05 AM // 04:05

too picky...
I say paragons work just fine now. They are designed to be a support-type profession, and thats what all these imbagons are doing.
And if you want to be aggressive and attack, they are fully capable of doing so quite efficiently if you pay attention to what skills work together well. Spear chucking paragons are useful if they are played correctly. Hell, they work good with hammers/swords/axes/daggers too if you want to try it out.

NerfHerder · Jun 24, 2010, 12:52 PM // 12:52

Quote:

Originally Posted by RedDog91

too picky...
I say paragons work just fine now. They are designed to be a support-type profession, and thats what all these imbagons are doing.
And if you want to be aggressive and attack, they are fully capable of doing so quite efficiently if you pay attention to what skills work together well. Spear chucking paragons are useful if they are played correctly. Hell, they work good with hammers/swords/axes/daggers too if you want to try it out.

Many fans and Anet would disagree. Paragons should excel in support/utility like you said, I dont think anyone had frontline in mind when they were created.

Quote:

A few other balance issues are being worked on in parallel and will be included in the same build if they are testing well enough. These will NOT include major changes to the Dervish (and in particular scythes), non-“Imbagon” Paragons, and the smiting line for the Monk. All of those are things we’ve been considering for major updates of their own. None are far enough along to be a part of this update.

However, notice they say non-Imbagon. Does this mean they wont change SY!? I have a feeling once they start messing with other skill combos, SY! may need some nerfing. This is by far a QQ about SY! being too powerful. More importantly, as Imbagon stands now we need a damn good reason to take another build. If they were to give a motivation line buff or a command line buff that provides offense and is as coveted as an Imbagon, they would be way OP. Hence the concern to tweak SY!. I agree with Axel, even if SY! was reduced drastically, Imbagon would still be a solid build, and would still be wanted in high end PvE. I dont even think SY! giving +40 armor is unreasonable, that brings a monks armor up to 100ar. If your casters need more armor than that, your not doing something right.

With the current meta, there isnt much room for two Paragons in a party. But if Imbagon were slightly less effective or even unchanged, and Paragons had more than one viable utility build, there would be plenty of room. I couldnt imagine a Paragon update w/o buffing motivation. If SY! stays the same, could you imagine a newly buffed Motigon and an Imbagon spamming TNTF and a lux/kurz SY! chain?

I hate to use a Rt as an example, because there is alot of debate about it being OP. But no one turns down a Rt anymore. They have a lot of options to bring to a group. You can go SoS, Communing, DwG, and thier Restoration line aint shabby either. Add a Rt/N minion bomber and thats easily 5 roles a Rt can bring to a group. Im not asking this of a Paragon, but is 2 or 3 roles too much to ask for?